How do you identify?

Olivia: Right now, I feel comfortable saying I'm genderqueer, pansexual. But the more I think about the reasons we use labels, the more I feel uncomfortable with them. Mainly because it feels like a sense of boundary or limitation that I'm trying to escape by using terms like pansexual or genderfluid. And so part of me wants to shake it off. But yeah—if we're trying to get to some sort of understanding of preferences and identity, then I guess those are the labels that feel the most comfortable for me right now.

Joy: Got you. And then pronouns?

Olivia: She/they, they/she—either way.

Question 2 is: what was your experience like with religion growing up?

Religion was at my moral center for, I think, my entire childhood. Like there wasn't a time in my life where my parents' teachings or the structure of my life wasn't attached to religious doctrine. And most of that had to do with attending a church every Saturday night or Sunday or being required to be part of a bible study or a like youth group dynamic.

But more than that, my dad would like read the bible to me and my brother every night and talk about it and we were always asked to pray at dinner. You know, all those stereotypical Christian, Protestant practices very much infiltrated my identity as a kid. And even to the extent of like how I perceived art. Like I wasn't really allowed to listen to any music that wasn't Christian. And more than even being allowed to, it was like my parents just didn’t—like they didn't give me access to it. So it meant like I found my love of music really young, but the only reference point I had was the Christian music I was allowed to listen to.

And, you touched on this a little already, but how do you think your experience with Christianity in your childhood impacted your overall sense of self—particularly as it relates to your queer identity?

I would say it created a…a void in myself that was filled with denial. And I know that's kind of paradoxical, to say there's a void filled with something, but there was definitely a large space left for exploration and understanding that I just wouldn't even let myself tap into because I was so deeply afraid and ashamed. And I genuinely feel like it manifested as denial. Like it wasn't even something I even allowed myself to consider.

I was just thinking about this the other day in terms of gender, because one of my friends was writing about how he's always felt trans and, you know, was telling his parents that as a kid. And I was like, it’s interesting that I've never had that kind of experience where I was like, “I'm not my assigned gender,” or, “I don't fit into the body that I'm in,” but I always felt a resistance to this womanhood idea that kept being projected onto me. And I just didn’t—because of the Christian framework I'd been raised in—I didn't realize that that's really what I was challenging. I think I thought like it’s patriarchy and it’s the oppression and, you know, the things that come along with womanhood that I didn't like. And part of that is true, but I think it was even deeper than that, and I just genuinely didn't allow myself to even explore that as a possibility.

Joy: Gotcha. What about as far as your sexuality?

Olivia: Yeah, I would say my sexuality was the same, if not more intense. Like you've known me since we were kids! I didn't really date anyone ever. I always had crushes but they were always in limerence [laughs] like not grounded in reality in any sort of way. And a lot of people would kind of—obviously in the early 2000s where homophobia was even more apparent—would be like, "oh well like you must be gay," you know? And my immediate reaction was, "that doesn't feel right, I don't think that's true."

Joy: “No!” [mockingly] [laughs]

Olivia: Yeah! But I didn't even give myself the permission to genuinely ask. Like I just had to—because of the religious framework that my parents gave me. I was like, “Well that can't be true because I'm all of these other things and that doesn't fit,” right?

Even more so with sexuality, the denial was really deep in there. And it wasn't even that I believed what my parents thought. Because like as soon as I learned about queerness and being gay or having another kind of sexual identity, like I knew that wasn't wrong! And I would challenge my parents about that over and over like as a really young person. So it’s interesting still that I was able to accept that for other people but when it came to myself, I was like…I was just unwilling to let it soak in.

Joy: Damn…that was good. [laughs]

Olivia: Some trauma! [laughs]

Me: Yeah we know her. We love her. [laughs]

Olivia: So well! [laughs]

So where has all of that left you now with religion and spirituality?

I mean…I never identified as religious, even though I think people would ascribe that term to me, because I always felt really open to different beliefs and faith practices. And that was always something—like in addition to the queerness, the limitations on belief that is centered in the Christian doctrine always kind of rubbed against me and felt untrue. And so…I had this deep connection to Spirit that was facilitated through Christianity cause that was the language I was taught. But I…I don't think I ever felt religious—aside from the fear that came with the religiosity of like, “this is gonna happen if you're not good.” And so I think there was always an internal pressure to be "good" in some sort of way—in whatever kind of made up manifestations I was told.

And so now, because I've been able to unpack a lot of that—and I'm still working on it—but I feel so much less attached to that particular view of goodness and righteousness; and therefore, honestly I feel more connected to Spirit, but less connected to community.

You know, my religious practice used to be attending a church, and praying at certain times, and celebrating holidays. And now it's so much more about being present in my body, and being honest with my thoughts, and journaling and connecting with nature, and the environment. And not that those things weren't present before, but just that they've now become central almost to replace the…doctrinal practices I had before. Yeah…I think that's the biggest way. And the lack of clear cut community—I have friends that I talk to about spiritual things, but it's far less organized and intentional. And yeah…sometimes I really miss having that gravitational force, that like, “I know everything's going to be ok because I believe in this.”

Joy: That makes a ton of sense.

So what has healing from that experience looked like for you—and, I guess, as a part 2 to that, that lack of community piece around your spirituality now? What has reckoning with that piece of your experience looked like?

Olivia: God, I wish I knew. [laughs] I think, honestly, there's still more feeling that needs to be done around like the hurt and trauma I received—not just from people rejecting my queerness, which was one part of my experience. But then Christians rejecting me in a different way that really on the surface had nothing to do with my queerness, but everything to do with my Blackness. And then in another sense of that [chuckles], Christian leaders rejecting me. But like I honestly, I still don't know what exactly happened or why. But I just lost connection and therefore, deep respect and trust for people who I thought really cared for me for over a year. So trying to heal from that, I think, will take a bit more time before I'm able to step into any kind of intentional spiritual community.

But I'm grateful for the individual connections that I’m making now. And that allow me to have those kind of conversations. And I'm hopeful that one day, I'll come across a group of people who share connected values and my curiosity. And no one is perfect. I'm not assuming I will never get hurt again, but just that I will be strong enough and centered enough in my own sense of self that it won't shake me the way that it has before.

Joy: Yeah that's really good…In like doing these so far, I feel like that's kind of a theme that hasn't necessarily come up yet. But…I guess in a sense, it's kind of been part of my own journey with like making sense of all this shit. Thus, doing this project. [chuckles]

Just like that whole—like for a lot of us—that piece where we kind of miss out on that community that's supposed to be there. Like that is the point of church. But at a certain point for the overwhelming majority of queer people, particularly Black queer people, like once we kind of disconnect from the religion or the church or the whatever, that kind of ends up being the gap. But it's something that we usually don't talk about or address. It’s just kind of like a, “Well yeah…the natural thing is for you to get the fuck. Like you don't belong here!” [chuckles]

And it's like, “but damn…like ok,” or you have like the people from church who might still sort of keep in contact with you, not in a super personal way. And they like might know that you're queer…just because. But it's nothing that's ever really talked about. But they still don't connect or engage with you in that same way. And things are clearly like different, but we just don't talk about it. 

Olivia: Or like, “I'm praying for you.” Like and it feels way more paternalistic and…what’s the word? Not pompous, but a bit arrogant of them to be like, “I'm living my life on the right path and I just praying that one day you see the error of your ways.”

Like that seems to be the undertone.

Me: Right…like you strayed.

Olivia: Exactly! Like you strayed.

Joy: Right, and there's like never this acknowledgement that maybe, “we went wrong somewhere.” Right? Like maybe we did not hold space for you the way we should have and could have had we tried even just a little bit. [chuckles]

It's interesting because the thing that pissed me off most—like when my cousin was dying basically—was like [someone from our old church] showed up at the hospital and basically was kind of saying like [they] didn't realize that Aaron was angry with [them] for so long. Now, this is someone who, you know, told him like, “Oh you're going to hell. You're going to get AIDS and die.” That kind of hateful bullshit. “You're an abomination.” Yadayadayada. And…like I think [they] just stopped by the hospital because they knew he was there. But Aaron ended up being the one that was like 'I'm sorry for being angry with you for so long and not communicating that,” essentially.

Olivia: Interesting.

But it just kind of blew the shit out of me because like why did it take him being on his death bed for you to finally come talk to him on some real shit? Like clearly this man has not been to church in [chuckles] forever! And you think anyone who leaves or stops coming is in rebellion or is, you know, going off the path or they've strayed or whatever. And it's just like…why do you think you're above just like…making these grave errors…in connections with people in general, but particularly that. It's just like, he's not the only one that's had this experience, right? And it’s just like, I don’t know, I can’t speak—

Olivia: And now he's apologizing?!? Like that's crazy!

Me: And then [they were] also like, “What advice do you have for handling other gay niggas that might show up to church?” essentially. [laughs] Not how [they] said it, but that was the root of the question. [laughs] And he's like just like, "Tell them that nothing's wrong with them! That like they're loved as well and that they're also God's children.” All that shit y'all say all the time, but there are like these hidden conditions underneath it. Like tell them that, and mean it, ya know? It's just not that fucking hard but—

Olivia: Say that!

Me: Everything you said, I—yeah that resonated quite a bit.

Olivia: Damn…bro. That's so powerful. Like say that shit and mean it! Cause it's not like they don't say it! But it's so empty. Like we've heard it before.

Me: “God loves you regardless.” “God loves you despite XYZ.” And the other piece of that would be, “…unless you are (insert whatever fucking identity here).” [laughs] Like that shit is so goofy.

Olivia: Like one of the things that I'm excited for about queer community is that by definition, it’s expansive. Like the whole purpose of queerness is to reject limitations, to reject boundaries. And so…all the people I know who’ve built queer community—it's messy as fuck! Like we are so dramatic. [laugh] We are like so broken and traumatized and trying to pull our shit together. But we love hard and we're willing to fight for that. And…I haven't found like my, my core people yet. But I know enough individual people who live their lives that way, that I know it’s way better than what I experienced in the Christian church—in the evangelical church.

Joy: Heavy on the evangelical. [laughs]. Emphasis on the fucking evangelical. Whew!

Olivia: And it's something that to this day—ugh! It frustrates me so much to hear my parents talk evangelically, like use that language. Because I'm like, you don't even know what the fuck you're saying anymore! Like this is meaningless to you. You've repea—you’ve parroted it so many times that it's almost like you're saying it because you think that God is gonna be happy that you're thinking of things that way and using that language, and like, God don't give a fuck! [laugh] Like I'm so sorry.

Joy: Yeah, it’s interesting.

Olivia: Like that is not what God cares about.

Me: Forreal…and I loved your point about queerness in and of itself being like expansive. And even, I guess I would say, queering my idea of what God is or like can be, or Spirit, Universe, whatever the fuck. I'm just like I think we're all talking about the same thing on some level. And it's just like, why is your God not big enough to love me too…? Like…do you hear yourself? (*laughs]

Olivia: Ooooo! Ooooo! Joy, come on! Come on! [laughs]

Me: Why do you think your God is not capable of that? That's YOU putting your human bullshit onto the divine or whatever it is that you're describing. Like…what's the point?

Olivia: Sibling…

Me: If that's what we're gonna do…what's the point?

Olivia: Mm that’s right. That is one of the best things I've ever heard. You just um…yeah…I don't know where you need to write that.

Me: I'm screaming…That's not like an original thought. Like thousands of people say that shit all the time. Just why?! I talk about this all the time with my line sister, Monyae, on the Vegas trip, just this idea that like evangelical Christians—because that's my frame of reference, right—Southern, Black, evangelical Christianity. Just kind of like have this terrible pattern of just like taking religion as it’s presented to us and not asking questions. And again, another thing, like why is God not capable of answering my fucking questions? Like…why would that be a thing?

Olivia: Right! Right!

Joy: Like that's silly. Why can't I explore these damn thoughts? God knows my thoughts, right? That's a thing y'all say all the time. God knows the thoughts that they think towards me. That's in your bible too, right? [chuckles] So I'm just like, I don't understand why there's just this rigid structure. I guess I would say, limitations that's just placed on like…the way that we express that part of ourselves.

Olivia: Right. It just—it’s genuinely illogical. Like it doesn't align with what they teach. And that's where I'm like hypocrisy is infuriating because it doesn't make sense. [chuckles] It's like what do you mean God loves everyone, but not you, because God made you this way. He isn't going to love you based on that. Like huh?!? Oh my god. And you're just going to be so willingly ignorant as to not see how any of those things play into power and colonialism and imperialism. Like that's just a coincidence, that queer people and Black people and Indigenous people HAPPEN to be in opposition to the fucking state? Like come on…use your two fucking brain cells! Oh my God.

Joy: And don’t get me started on the Blackness is inherently queer. Yadayadayada. Don’t let them hear that! [laughs]

Olivia: Oh dude! I have to send you this book. So I—‘North Carolina bae’ sent it to me cause they’re like “this is one of my favorite books.” And I had listened to a podcast from this author before and thought it was amazing, but forgot his name! His name is Ashon Crawley and he wrote this book called The Lonely Letters. He’s like this queer, Black pentecostal. He’s written a couple other works as well. But yeah, it’s so relevant to everything we’ve discussed and really profound. Would definitely recommend.

Joy: Will definitely check that out.

The next question, still very much relevant, is who has been instrumental in helping you through your healing journey? Who or what?

Olivia: This is weird but honestly the pandemic…like 2019/2020 was the time that I really started grappling with these kinds of things. In 2019, it was because I had just graduated college, and so I really felt like I had space to myself for the first time—like space to think and to decide. And I was attached to this church community, because I was working there, but like…I don’t know, there was something about not being in a school environment that suddenly made me feel a bit more liberated. So that kind of like started—

And I remember being in Kenya at the end of 2019, beginning of 2020, and just like fighting with my dad, in particular, about queerness and being so intensely emotional in a way that I hadn't fully allowed myself to be before. Like I'd always felt, but would just like push it back. And I ran outside of our house and like had to do my breathing exercises, calm down. And my brother came out and he's like, “dude are you good?”

And for some reason, it finally hit me that I was like, “Oh, I'm getting worked up about this because he's talking about me!”

Joy: [giggles]

Olivia: For the first—literally for the first time!

Joy: Is this play about us??? [laughs]

Olivia: No, exactly! I was like, why does it activate me so much? Like my brother's obviously upset, but it doesn't impact him the same way. And I was like, “Oh my God!” And I articulated it to him in that moment and he's like, “Dude, you know I’ll always love you,” and that was a really kind of pivotal moment for me.

And then I think moving into the beginning of 2020, it was a very similar kind of reckoning with other friends—like other people at my church who I knew felt a certain way and would make certain comments that would really upset me. Or even on the opposite end, like friends I had who were queer, but who I never related to on that level, who I then began to ask more questions. Yeah and they just…made space for me to be that. Particularly, my friend Julian who was incarcerated from like July 2018 to September 2019. And so as we were reconnecting and reestablishing our relationship—he's gay and one of the foundational things, I think, that brought us closer together was talking about queerness and asking him what his coming out process was like. And he was like, “I'm grateful that you came out to me and that you feel like that's a process that you really needed to take—and you don’t need to come out to anyone. Like you can just be who the fuck you are and you don't have to make it a big thing or put any pressure on yourself, ” and that was so relieving to just be like, “Ugh God! I'm not going to come out to all these people at work or to my parents in a certain way or any of that shit.” I'm just going to be gay. [laughs] That's enough.

Me: I love the concept that I've heard thrown around - I don't know who to credit this to (*laughs*) - but less about coming out and like inviting people in instead. Like "you know what? You're safe. Here's a little piece of info about me" I feel like coming out can be a very cathartic thing for a lot of people but for me, I felt like I didn't need to do that with anyone but my very immediate family -  my brothers, my parents, my auntie. That was it. Like I'm not doing this with everybody else.

 And for Pride, like my birthday, I guess that was kind of a coming out post but that wasn't the intention at all. It was just like I'm feeling this thing. This is what I was doing this weekend. Look at me and my friends being beautiful and happy and queer as fuck.

Olivia: And Black and gay!

Me: Right! And Black and gay. It was great…and that was just— that was it. And since then, I've been feeling just like more free to kind of like just be—just exist as I want to exist and as I am, without a lot of subconscious kind of like, “ooo maybe I shouldn't say this this way or maybe I shouldn't post this" or like "I wanna do this but it might be kind of taken…" It's just like…now I do what I want.

Olivia: I don't know if you felt this way, but for me I kind of swung the opposite way where at first—actually, maybe it's not really opposite, maybe it's just one big circle—but I think part of my resistance to my own queer identity was feeling like I wasn't queer enough. Like, "Oh I've never dated or kissed a girl so like I'm not…" Or “I didn't know that about myself until this point in time” or I couldn't articulate it in a certain way or whatever it was so then I'm not queer enough. And therefore, like what am I coming out for, ya know?

Me: I think like for me…I've always known. This was never a secret…to me, but it was something I was deeply ashamed of for a long time. Like I kissed a girl for the first time when I was like 6. So you know, just one of those kids being kids type things. But I was like "hmm." when it happened and just became a thing that happened…more often. But it was just always something, I didn't acknowledge or like ignored.

And then, similarly to you, I think 2020 was the first time I said I was anything other than straight. I was going on a rant about something having to do with politics or whatever [chuckles] and I was like "as a presumably straight woman…" I was talking to [my ex] and he was like, “Wait what…? Why did you say it like that?”

Olivia: Wow!

Joy: I was like, “Hmm…this is something!" And at that point…I was just like "Ok girl…" Like I've always…ya know comp-het shit. But it's not that I'm not attracted to men. Like unfortunately, I am…I fear. [laughs] but I'm attracted to a lot of people. It just is what it is. Then I entered my like “I am who I am. I like who I like" era, and the rest is history.

So similarly to you, definitely felt a lot of that "I'm not queer enough" thing. Even moving to she/they pronouns. I still very much identify as a Black woman just because that, that is my lived experience. But like you were talking about earlier, that attachment to "woman" or "female-ness" or whatever you want to call it, I don't feel that. I don't really fuck with a lot of the boundaries and limitations that are placed on women. I don't feel that like…that strong attachment to femininity necessarily. I just kind of like to express the way I feel like expressing.

And you know, none of these things make anyone inherently nonbinary or trans or whatever, like people can express how they want to. But it's just kinda one of those things, like gender is made the fuck up!

Olivia: Right!

Joy: But my experience has always been Black womanhood. But my womanhood is very much attached to my Blackness. Like they are…[crosses fingers] they like this. So that's just what it is. Definitely felt the whole, I'm not queer enough. I'm not "they" enough [laughs], if you will. But now it's just like…who is?

When we think about nonbinary people there's always like this image that's put forth of super androgynous, white people who are like small. That's kind of the image that's put at the center of like genderqueerness, if you will. But it’s just like for me…I got big ass titties, and now I got a lil ass and I love her!

Olivia: Oop! [laughs]

Joy: But I'm never going to give androgyny in that way. And I think like also coming to terms with that piece of my experience as well. Just like being like a Black woman in a bigger body and that also being a part of my experience and just kind of like bringing together all of these pieces of myself that I didn't really dive into for a long time but were very much at the forefront of the way that I like navigated and experienced the world and live my life. [chuckles] Lived and live now. I just had to come to terms with a lot of that shit and I feel like it's been a journey for a long time.

2020 was a pivotal point for a lot of people. 2021 was like "ok we're medicated!”

Olivia: Exactly! [laughs]

Joy: “and now I don't have to run from my thoughts anymore”

Olivia: Yes!

Me: And then I found out I have ADHD. So I'm like "Ok we're Black, queer, neurodivergent…" Like so many things happening at once, but just kind of like coming to understand myself more really gave me the push and also just like the space to…take up space in all that I am. So yeah. That’s that.

Olivia: Yes. It's so funny how parallel our paths have been. Like the 2020, 2021, 2022 [chuckles] A lot of that shit happened at the same time for me too. So it really—it was such a gift to be able to, “wait…do I do that too?"

Me: I feel like we've always walked parallel paths in a way. Shit we've known each other forever at this point.

Olivia: Since we were babies, bro!

Me: I knooow! It's been…it's been a journey.

Olivia: But a good one! I'm grateful we're on each other's paths.

Me: Yeah, me too! Me too.

And on that note, what would you tell your younger self right now—about this journey, about their queerness, about being in church? All of that shit—what advice would you give yourself for navigating it?

Olivia: Not me getting emotional…[laughs]Ooh!

Me: Yeah…[laugh] take your time!

Olivia: I mean…it's cliché, but I would tell them, don't be afraid of yourself. Like all of the parts that you feel like you have to hide because no one will ever love. Or the things that you're ashamed of are the things that actually make you really special and unique and are gifts from the universe or whatever creation origin we came from. And…yeah that’s not something to run from or hide from, but to embrace…Damn. We knew we weren't getting though this as two water signs!

Me: Two water signs? I don't think so. [laughs] That was a beautiful ending. Thank you so much.

Olivia: Dude, this was so so so profound. Thank you for allowing me to be a part of it.

Me: I'm just talking and running my mouth, that’s all! [laughs]

Olivia: You're being the creative genius that you are! That you always have been. And I get to participate in that.

Me: Thank you so much for being a part of this!